当我们聊Megaeth和Monad的争论,我们聊的是什么
What Are We Really Talking About When We Discuss the Debate Between Megaeth and Monad?
@bankless 视频里面40分40秒左右开始,有了后来无数媒体讨论的full node之争:
piped.video/watch?v=1qZbLyHP…
Around the 40:40 mark in the
@bankless video, the now widely-discussed debate on full nodes started:
piped.video/watch?v=1qZbLyHP…
先给结论,后论项目。
-full node分歧: 实际上
@megaeth 的
@yangl1996 所说的fullnode,潜台词是表达自己做了node功能上的拆分,也就是他们说的node specialization。
@keoneHD 不知道这个定义,实际上应该是在场的几个人,都没看过
@yilongl_megaeth 的研究。所以很多上下文是没对上的。
-keone质疑的问题:其实并不是质疑full node,而是centralized sequencer。这个质疑只能说质疑的一半对,因为他并不知道用了prover去监督执行,大白话说就是用prover来实现去中心化。但是他质疑的根源也没问题,因为one active sequencer确实是要面对centralized sequencer的质疑,加上显然keone没看过megaeth的doc,以他的视角提出这个质疑。
那么,当讨论Megaeth时说Vitalik投了之外,我们究竟认真看了多少?
First, the conclusion; later, the project details.
-Full Node Dispute:
What
@yangl1996 from
@megaeth meant by "full node" actually implied that they have decomposed node functionalities—what they call "node specialization."
@keoneHD was not aware of this definition. In fact, it's likely that none of the participants had read
@yilongl_megaeth's research, leading to mismatched contexts.
-Keone's Doubt:
Keone's question wasn't really about full nodes, but rather about the centralized sequencer. His skepticism is only partially correct because he didn't know that they were using a prover to supervise execution—in plain terms, using a prover to achieve decentralization. However, his doubts are understandable because having just one active sequencer indeed raises questions about centralization. It is evident that Keone hadn't read the Megaeth documentation, so his skepticism came from his perspective.
So, when discussing Megaeth, beyond mentioning that Vitalik invested, how much have we seriously examined?
有关
@megaeth ,我们该知道的一切
Everything You Need to Know About
@megaeth
最早是
@BMANLead 约在香港碰了一面,他推荐了
@megaeth 。(除了讨论他可爱的女儿和megaeth时候他自豪的侃侃而谈,其余时候是我们两个i人在尬聊,有趣的经历)
他们是最早找到
@yilongl_megaeth 的机构,我很好奇,是谁找到的yilong?可能是
@cyodyssey ?BMAN当时兴奋的说了real time blockchain这个词,我下意识得当作了vc造得一个概念,于是延迟了几天看doc(这是我肤浅了)。
几天后,刷到 @_Digital_J_ 从哈佛phd休学加入megaeth的推特,我天生对退学创业的人充满了敬畏,如果我带着现在的认知重返18岁,一定直接退学,多几次容错空间。当然,也可能对曾经有同款发型有好感。
在他那,看了yilong这个doc之后,我们对megaeth产生了很大的兴趣。
doc的链接:
docs.google.com/presentation…
It all started when
@BMANLead met up in Hong Kong and recommended
@megaeth. (Besides talking proudly about his adorable daughter and Megaeth, the rest of our chat was mostly awkward small talk—an interesting experience.)
They were the earliest organization to discover
@yilongl_megaeth. I was curious—who exactly found Yilong? Maybe it was
@cyodyssey? BMAN enthusiastically mentioned "real-time blockchain," which I initially dismissed as a VC buzzword and delayed reading the documentation by a few days (that was a shallow judgment).
A few days later, I came across
@Digital_J’s tweet announcing his leave from Harvard’s PhD program to join Megaeth. I have a natural admiration for those who drop out to start a venture; if I could go back to being 18 with my current understanding, I would drop out immediately to have more room for trial and error. Also, perhaps there was a sense of affinity due to having the same hairstyle back then.
From his tweet, I found the document by Yilong, and that piqued our interest in Megaeth.
Document Link:
docs.google.com/presentation…
@yilongl_megaeth 做了一些非常solid的实验,论证了L1几乎不可能达到100k TPS的结论。当RAM扩展到一定程度,边际效应是极其明显的。
大白话翻译就是L1达到100k tps几乎需要无穷大的RAM。论证过程可以看上述的文档。那么,怎么才可能突破tps的瓶颈呢。 这也是这场争论的真正原点,megaeth选择了直接改结构,而monad选择直接优化各个环节。各有利弊。
@yilongl_megaeth conducted some solid experiments that demonstrated it is practically impossible for L1 to reach 100k TPS. When RAM is expanded to a certain extent, the marginal effects become extremely pronounced.
To put it simply, reaching 100k TPS on L1 would require an infinite amount of RAM. The reasoning can be found in the document above. So, how can the TPS bottleneck be broken? This is the core of the debate. Megaeth chose to change the structure directly, while Monad opted to optimize each stage. Both have their pros and cons.
@megaeth 的解决方案:拆分。
将一个节点的功能拆分成三个角色:
1)sequencer(排序):决定顺序交易的排序(only one active sequencer)
2)prover(验证):决定交易是不是合法
3)node(执行):只负责按照顺序执行
这是个非常学术逻辑的延展,比如prover是能从vitalik的论文里找到原型的,我们看论文的小伙伴直接发给了我这篇文章。
论文原文:
cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/m.albassa…
Solution from
@megaeth: Decomposition.
Breaking down the functionalities of a node into three roles:
Sequencer: Decides the order of transactions (only one active sequencer)
Prover: Validates whether transactions are legitimate
Node: Executes transactions in the given order
This approach extends academic logic—such as the role of the prover, which can be traced back to a paper by Vitalik. A friend who read the paper shared it with me.
Original Paper:
cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/m.albassa…
那么,这个结构还真不能算是无源之水,但可能算非传统门派武功(比如乾坤大挪移)。
优劣都十分明显:
-优点:是三个方向都可以精进。通过分拆功能,实现了速度的提升从‘线性’变成了‘指数’,100k tps的终局是各个维度的相乘。2+2+2显然不如2*2*2效率高
-劣势:即使有prover,one active sequencer也确实容易被挑战。
So, this structure isn't without precedent, but it could be considered unorthodox (like a unique martial art technique).
Advantages and Disadvantages:
Pros: All three aspects can be improved. By decomposing functions, the speed improvement changes from linear to exponential. The endpoint of 100k TPS is a multiplication across dimensions. Clearly, 2+2+2 is less efficient than 222.
Cons: Even with a prover, one active sequencer is still vulnerable to challenge.
monad 解决方案:优化
优化数据库 MonadDB
优化效率:Parallel Execution
优化执行:Asynchronous execution
优化算法:Monad BFT
优劣点也很明显:
-优点:保留了去中心化(虽然节点也要物理上靠近)
-劣势:无法回答yilong的结论,L1如何突破瓶颈
Solution from monad: Optimization.
Optimizing Database: MonadDB
Enhancing Efficiency: Parallel Execution
Improving Execution: Asynchronous Execution
Algorithm Optimization: Monad BFT
Advantages and Disadvantages:
Pros: Retains decentralization (although nodes also need to be physically close).
Cons: Cannot address Yilong's conclusion—how to break the L1 bottleneck.
Firedancer的很多影子能看到,目前从keone的推特表述里面看来是围绕优化状态问题,原本我以为是优化读写,后来发现是既然状态改变比较麻烦,那我尽量也少读写。以及通过节点物理范围集中等方式来优化,总体是传统武术,无限优化。总体比较去中心化原教旨,有道德优势。看起来像一个大号的sonic。
然而,monad也有自己要回答的终极问题,就是tps如何突破瓶颈?当然,或许kone认为不需要回答,只要比对手强就好,毕竟链的成功显然不单是技术问题。目前公布的tps10k看起来水分应当是不高,较为真实。
You can see the influence of Firedancer here. From Keone's tweets, it seems their focus is on optimizing state management. Initially, I thought it was about optimizing read/write operations, but it turns out the goal is to minimize read/write operations as much as possible due to the complexity of state changes, and optimizing by concentrating nodes within a certain physical range. It's a more traditional approach of endless optimization. It’s quite decentralized at its core, offering a moral advantage—like a larger version of Sonic.
However, Monad also has its own ultimate question to answer: how to break the TPS bottleneck? Of course, Keone might think that as long as it’s better than the competitors, there's no need to answer it. After all, the success of a blockchain is clearly not just a technical matter. The announced 10k TPS seems reasonably authentic.
除了技术门派的不同,隐藏在背后需要讨论的是视角问题。Monad更商业视角,Megaeth更技术视角。
@VitalikButerin 的加入讨论更加深了一层,比如防欺诈窗口这个问题,其实从商业上来说无论多久10钟还是7天都是不合理的。(我看到
@paradigm 的人在评论区表达了同样的观点)
@keoneHD 看的出来是比较丰富的实际视角下的考虑,甚至在讲创新的时候讲了社区运营上的创新。这个很多人忽略。
yang 、 yilong 都属于更技术视角,严谨论证,谨慎创新。(多说一句, eigenlayer 的DA就是yang写的)
Beyond the technical differences, there’s a hidden issue of perspective. Monad takes a more commercial perspective, while Megaeth has a more technical focus.
@VitalikButerin's involvement adds another layer, such as the fraud-proof window discussion, which is commercially unreasonable whether it's 10 minutes or 7 days (I noticed someone from
@paradigm expressed a similar view in the comments).
@keoneHD clearly considers things from a practical perspective, even mentioning community management innovations when discussing innovation—something many overlook.
yangl and yilong both approach things from a more technical perspective, favoring rigorous validation and cautious innovation. (As a side note,
@eigencloud’s DA was written by Yang.)
希望
@hotpot_dao 的加入能够补齐商业上的视角,毕竟这两年hbs mba已经不怎么招Crypto背景的人了,华人就更少了。去年也只有一个 carv ,中途还退学了。
目前看到megaeth在社区和商业上发力较少,不知道是不是因为交割问题。但是从pitch融资的思考上,shuyao
@hotpot_dao 显然是成熟的,无论是大的节点商
@FigmentCapital @heliuslabs 还是老东家
@Consensys @eigencloud ,都是团结了该团结的人。商业能力的本质是团结一切可以让自己强的力量,战略上显然是没有偷懒的。
We hope that
@hotpot_dao can fill in the commercial perspective gap. After all, in the past two years, Harvard Business School's MBA program has not been recruiting many people with crypto backgrounds, especially Chinese. Last year, there was only one from carv, who also dropped out midway.
Currently, it seems Megaeth is not focusing much on community and business, possibly due to delivery issues. However, from the perspective of pitching and fundraising, Shuyao from
@hotpot_dao is clearly very experienced. They have rallied the right people, whether from major node operators like
@FigmentCapital and @heliuslabs or from former employers like
@Consensys and
@eigencloud. The essence of commercial ability is to unite all forces that can strengthen oneself, and strategically, there has been no slacking.
在从日本回来的路上写了这个推特,我们也在最近持续讨论高性能EVM链的过程里思考,未来什么环节是有产业优势的,非常感谢 monad 和 megaeth_labs 给我们的启发,如果有上游的云服务商碰巧看到了这条内容,非常希望能够交流验证一下我们的猜想。
I wrote this tweet on my way back from Japan. In our ongoing discussions about high-performance EVM chains, we are contemplating which areas have industrial advantages in the future. We are very grateful to monad and megaeth_labs for the inspiration. If any upstream cloud service providers happen to see this content, we would love to exchange ideas and validate our assumptions.
好产品不论皮肤,创新会带来增长。
世界是简单的道理和常识组成的,祝这两个产品好,由衷的。
A good product is not defined by appearances; innovation brings growth. The world is built on simple truths and common sense. Wishing the best for these two products, sincerely.