Data over Mythology. Applying the GOAT debate rules / thresholds created by NBA fans to players of all eras. Long strings are at @mythnixstrings
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MJ fans don’t understand that Jordan didn’t beat elite teams—ever.
He got snuffed.
Meanwhile, for MJ fans to accept Lebron as the GOAT, Lebron has to win multiple SERIES against teams MJ couldn’t beat once.
If these columns were reversed, we know how MJ fans would argue.
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So we’re down to one last game.
Saturday night.
Lebron’s last game in his 30s.
If he scores 10 points, he will go his ENTIRE THIRTIES without having a single digit game.
Never been done.
And we’ll never see it again.
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These guys think 2024 Sudan, with NBA players and coached by an NBA assistant looking for a head coaching gig in the NBA, is the same thing as 1992 Angola.
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Their FIRST TAKE was wrong.
In clutch time from 3, MJ was:
97: 2-11
98: 1-9
02: 0-2
03: 1-5
Total: 4-27
Lebron’s shot was from 30 feet. From 30+ ft, MJ was:
97: 1-5
98: 0-6
02: 0-1
03: 0-4
Total: 1-16
WHY is it so hard to have honesty in this debate?
Why the mythology?
"My man MJ would have hit that shot." 😅
@stephenasmith and @ShannonSharpe on LeBron James' final shot in the Lakers' 117-114 loss to the Pistons on Monday.
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You had a 73 win team and then actively recruited the 3rd best player in the league.
🤦♂️
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If you truly want to “stop it,” don’t spend 5 minutes on it on your show. Ignore it.
But, instead, “as a father,” you rip the kid MORE on national television.
It’s despicable.
STFU and reach out to Lebron or Rob or JJ or Bronny YOURSELF, if you’re so “concerned.”
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Lebron put up a 26.9 GameScore in the Denver series. We can clearly see he’s compromised.
Here’s how that compares to Jordan’s Finals:
1993: 29.6
1991: 29.4
Lebron 2023: 26.9
1992: 25.8
1997: 23.4
1998: 21.4
1996: 18.5
Jordan averaged 24.5.
If Lebron is bad…what’s Jordan?
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Kobe blamed all his teammates, constantly. Didn’t even talk to key guys.
Lebron stands in front of the press and takes arrows for teammates.
Guess which one is real leadership…
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Everyone in the world thought Dr J would destroy Kareem.
Unless you fully understood their games.
Similar to how Lebron would beat Jordan.
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How Lebron gets defended in the Olympics (doubled)…
Versus how Jordan got defended (whatever THIS is).
And the corresponding difference in results.
What does your “eye test” tell you?
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“Analytics killed inefficient basketball that wasn’t effective, but was all we knew.”
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So, let’s see…Lebron:
“Afraid to shoot.” Nope.
“No killer instinct.’” Strange. Lebron is to the higher up and to the right of the biggest “KILLA” known to mankind after 1998.
“Not clutch.” Except, Lebron is average across all the most elite players. With FAR more volume.
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Yes, yes. Jordan made 100% of his last second shots, particularly from 3.
In reality, Jordan was 1-5 from 3 while trailing and taking a shot to tie or win with 3 seconds left or less.
0-1 at this age.
The mythology is crazy.
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Are we SURE that “the GOAT” Curry is even the best player on his team?
Butler: 14 points in the 4th
9 points in the last 4 minutes
Final rebound
Curry: ZERO points in the last 6 minutes. Chewed his nails on the bench in the last minute.
And look at the WHOLE TEAM guard Curry!
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Lebron is getting destroyed for 36/10/11 last night, with 6 made 3’s, a 36.3 GameScore.
In Jordan’s Wizards years, he had ONE game above a 36 GameScore.
Across 142 games.
The expectations on Lebron are FAR higher.
It’s how you know he’s the GOAT.
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And Lebron said in return: “I was wrong, my bad.”
Think Jordan would do that?
One’s a leader and a great teammate; one isn’t.
😂😂😂😂😂
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MJ: “I’D LOVE TO SEE LARRY BIRD AS A BULL”
MJ would never “team up” with great players, right? He wanted to “BEAT the best, not join them.”
So when the Celtics were looking at trading Bird in 1990…what did MJ say?
“We’ll take him.” 😳
He even offered to take a pay cut.
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His comp is terrible. It’s right there.
“Michael Jordan is the GOAT simply because his competition was weakest.”
Not a good look.
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MJ AND HIS SCOREKEEPER 🧵
Michael Jordan won DPOY in 1988 with fishy defensive metrics at home, after a season where he was “ticked off” he didn’t get All Defense.
Did he get scorekeeper help? 🤔
If so…who WAS that guy?
And did MJ ever PAY that scorekeeper? (Hint: YES)
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Lebron James in OT in the postseason: 13-4
Michael Jordan in OT in the playoffs: 4-6
When entering the 4th quarter within one possession in the postseason (+/- 3 points):
Lebron James: 50-17 (75%)
Michael Jordan: 29-17 (63%)
Average for Top 10 All Time, excluding Lebron: 60%
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LeBron has twice the assists and the same PPG.
There are no defensive stats here. Lebron had 188 stocks, Carmelo 138. Lebron’s DBPM was 1.7, Carmelo 0.
Carmelo had a negative on/off, -0.8. Lebron had a 2.2 positive on/off.
It’s actually pretty clearly Lebron.
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Skip Bayless wrote an article in 1998 where he said:
1) MJ’s era didn’t have the elite, winning talent that Lebron’s era had. No Durant, Curry, Duncan, Kobe, etc.
2) MJ got favorable officiating
3) Jordan stat-padded!
WTF?
Don’t MJ fans say the OPPOSITE of this?!?
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Here’s what Jordan did after Pippen’s miss, in the final 8 minutes, in a game they lost in OT:
1-4
1-2 from the line
3 pts
0 assists
Mr “Feeling It” doesn’t look like he should be screaming at teammates.
If it’s Lebron, this a CHOKE.
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The 2007 Finals look nothing like this.
Lebron was double and triple teamed.
Narratives.
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He didn’t hate it when he was getting his massive paycheck as a ceremonial player and winning 13 out of 66 games.
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LEBRON’S 2004 BRONZE🧵
The criticism of “LeBronze” for the 2004 Olympics is DUMB.
D-U-M-B.
1) Lebron didn’t play. He played 3 MINUTES in the semifinal loss.
2) Overall, he shot 19-32, 65% TS%
3) Brown was criticized for NOT playing him. Stern even called Brown over it
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Also…Jordan gets credit because he “worked hard.”
Here’s how hard Jordan was “working” in 1988.
No weights, exercise or extra shooting. Eating McDonalds and golfing was his “work.”
Do you all see the mythology yet?
Look at some of the lying protection for Jordan.
“He worked hard.”
“Without any hard proof…”
Getting more steaks than the opponents turnover count is…hard proof.
“Given how far the NBA goes to protect the integrity of their statistics…”
No. They did nothing then.
🤦♂️
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TWO OTHER THINGS TO NOTE ABOUT HABERSTROH’S ARTICLE.
One, Haberstroh stopped short on this point, but Sam Smith made it known that Bob Rosenberg kept a scrapbook for Jordan all those years, and Jordan “rewarded him well” for it.
Jordan was “rewarding” his scorekeeper. 😳
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MICHAEL JORDAN’S EXCUSES STRING 🧵
One myth is MJ never made excuses.
Except…he made excuses all the time.
And some are ridiculous.
This is a long string with 18 items (I took some out!), but these are amazing.
If you want details on any, search @mythnix and MM/DD/YY.
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MICHAEL JORDAN: STAT PADDING KING 🧵
MJ fans love to argue that Jordan didn’t care about stats, and that he didn’t stat pad.
It’s a BIG lie.
Nobody ever cared more about their stats. MJ was the Greatest Ever at Stat Padding. GOAT!
Take a look. It’s a long one!
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Barkley and crew literally hate the sport.
No other league would stand for this coverage.
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Lebron had a grade 2 injury and kept playing.
Curry got a grade 1 injury and got off the court as fast as possible.
Different.
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He’s upset that his free throw routine was interrupted.
Did you bother to see the stats that get posted later in the video?
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Barkley complained again that Lebron didn’t “go through the grind.”
Here’s the “grind” others had:
MJ: won in 7th yr
Curry: 6th
Bird: 2nd
Magic: 1st
Kareem: 2nd
Russell: 1st
Kobe: 4th
Lebron was in Cleveland 7 years.
He DID the “grind.” His teammates weren’t as good.
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CHARLES BARKLEY: SO MUCH HYPOCRISY 🧵
Barkley is celebrated by old heads.
Except…he represents everything they say they hate in today’s players. They should DESPISE him.
Barkley and the 90s fans who love him are hypocrites, and his career exposes their bias.
Take a look.
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All this, and not a single ACTUAL credible claim.
Sad.
The projection in the last sentence is glorious.
Giannis doesn’t threaten Magic, Kobe or Jordan fans because he’s not better than them. That’s it. That’s the difference.
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6/6/4 in 10 minutes, guarding arguably the best player on the planet out of position, is “nowhere.”
It’s how you know Lebron the GOAT.
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MJ: SHOT CHARTS IN 1989 VS THE PISTONS 🧵
At age 26, Jordan gets excused for giving away a winnable series versus a hadn’t-won-anything-yet, 6+ SRS Detroit team.
In games 4-6, MJ STOPPED SHOOTING. He froze.
It’s worse than Lebron in 2011.
Look at these charts...
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No he didn’t. He was hurt in 2010.
In game 6, he:
Scored at KD’s career average rate
Assisted at Magic’s career per-possession rate
Rebounded at Wilt’s career per-possession rate
With 4 stocks
That’s “quitting” to you guys.
Zero credibility.
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“Where’s the evidence this guy is a winner, Ernie? He didn’t win at ASU or LSU. How can you praise a guy who couldn’t even lead his team to a college playoff game? Not the #1 pick. This was all about Detroit choking against a rookie who doesn’t even know how to play football.”
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The Warriors bench outscored the Cavs bench by 40 points in 5 games.
Think that matters?
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I count legitimately 8 times this would be a foul if it were MJ.
One before Lebron gets the ball, and then one for each bump after.
But nothing called, because it’s Lebron.
You won’t find a much better example of the hurdle placed in front of Lebron to prove he’s the GOAT.
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No, no…$90M is irrelevant.
The contract said that he had to sign up to be compared to a myth for the rest of his life.
THAT was what he signed up for.
It wasn’t for the money. Who would care about the MONEY?!?
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Ladies and gentlemen, here’s Ron Harper proudly announcing during the Finals that flopping is “for a very good cause.”
He was good with Rodman flopping. If it benefits RON HARPER, it’s all good.
😳
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You: “Kobe never made excuses.”
Also You: “Kobe would blame his teammates to make them better.”
That’s not an EXCUSE?
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AWARDS AND ACCOLADES MICHAEL JORDAN SHOULDN’T HAVE WON 🧵
Since it’s now reported that Jordan was given fake stats to help win his DPOY award, let’s look at the awards he won.
People show this graphic all the time.
Here are the undeserved awards for MJ, chronologically.
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36 more wins to pass Kareem for all time in wins.
49 games to pass Parish all time in games.
500 assists to pass Kidd for 3rd.
And, most importantly, a much better chance at a title next year.
He’s going at least one more year...
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1. Positionless basketball
2. 4 out style (Cleveland was right at the top of the league in the 3 point revolution)
3. Player empowerment: leaving bad situations
4. Player empowerment: Creating favorable contract structures
5. Revolutionized expectations of older players
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I’m so confused. I’ve been told repeatedly:
2014 Heat were great
2011 Heat were great
2014 Spurs were “old”
2011 Mavericks weren’t good (AND “old”)
2007 Cavs defense was incredible
2007 Spurs were “old”
Have I been lied to? How could that BE?!?
How many superteams did Lebron play on? I can barely find those teams on this chart in the utterly dominant section.
If he played on superteams in the 2010s, I'm counting 20 superteams from the last 20 years, and 90% of them were non-Lebron-led teams.
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HoopsHype with the top 20 SF defenders EVER.
In Finals, Lebron was defended by:
2. Kawhi (13,14)
3. Bowen (07)
5. Iggy (15-18)
8. Marion (11)
12. Butler (20)
While Jordan had #1 as a teammate (Pippen).
But we should ONLY use Finals to judge GOAT play, right? MJ faced this? 🤔
We have LeBron James as the seventh-best defensive small forward in NBA history.
hoopshype.com/lists/20-great…
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Some Lebron narratives blown up in the last month:
“Players hate playing with Lebron”
“He’s a bad leader”
“He’s washed”
“He’s not clutch”
“Players don’t respect Lebron”
“He couldn’t survive physical play”
“He’s a bad defender”
“The ball stops in his hands”
How did these do?
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Psst…the Lebron fan base enjoys basketball. They enjoy Wemby.
It’s not about their childhoods.
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Wait, wait, wait. Kerr saw Jordan practice for 3+ years.
How could he be “blown away” by Lebron’s practice habits? Surely they’re deeply inferior to Jordan’s.
I mean, if you see “hardest working practice player” up close, how could you be “blown away” by an inferior fraud?
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Lebron is 4th in the playoffs in GameScore since 2019.
Why does everyone feel the need to lie about this guy?
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TWO of these pictures ARE IN THE CLIPS HE SHOWS.
You guys are so unbelievably messed up.
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WHY THE 90’S WERE THE WORST NBA ERA 🧵
If anyone says the 90s were a great era, ask them to go watch a full game without MJ. They won’t be able to do it. It’s nearly unwatchable.
Here are 6 reasons it’s the worst era (inept offenses, old players, slow pace, no shooting, etc.).
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😢
Kobe goes 0/1/1/0/0 in the second half of a game 7…
Kobe fans: “do you remember the shitty 8/9/7 Lebron put up in an 82 pace game that wasn’t with the season on the line?”
Sad.
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Lebron is getting blamed for losing last night.
He played the entire 4th, scoring 16, and hitting a 3 with 6 sec left.
In his entire Wizards tenure, MJ:
Played the entire 4th 29 times
16 pt high
10+ pts 5X
In those 5 games, he NEVER made a FG in the last 3 minutes.
Context.
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MJ: 35 points in a first half, goes 16-27 for 39 points in a win.
Lebron: 31 points in H1, goes 15-25 for 40 points in a loss.
One is the “shrug game,” which is apparently one of the greatest games ever.
One is a loss that’s 100% Lebron’s “fault” and “deserving” of ridicule.
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The GOAT debate has shifted significantly in Lebron’s direction in the last 2-3 years.
And here’s a good example of it…
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YOU COULDN’T TOUCH JORDAN 🧵
MJ fans think he had a regular, run-of-the-mill superstar whistle.
No. Stern’s thumb was on the scale and MJ got the greatest protection ever. You couldn’t touch him, and everyone knew there were double standards.
Here’s what was said then.
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The grade inflation on Jordan’s defense is just SO high. He’s SO overrated defensively.
Can you imagine Klay and Steph running this guy through screens?
He gives up on running through them ROUTINELY.
3+ minutes of Mitch Richmond putting 'First Team All-Defense' Michael Jordan to work on a random Saturday night in 1998.
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It’s amazing how little Kobe fans understand about the 2008-2010 Lakers.
Simply amazing.
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Yeah, that’s taking arrows.
You’re on here criticizing HIM. Not the team.
This is leadership. Not…saying you have no excuses and then turning around and shitting on your teammates and refusing to speak to them.
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When did Kobe go for 51 in a Finals game?
This is literally the game you’re criticizing.
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Lebron’s impact on the 3 point shooting revolution is significantly underestimated. His teams were at the top in 3 point shooting just as much as the Warriors.
Andre Igoudala gives Lebron and the Miami heat credit for revolutionizing Nba offense
(🎥 @OldManAndThree)
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This is unfair to MJ.
Had had to play punishing defenses and “bigger, stronger” players.
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The Cavs line up was close to the same as 03. 18 game improvement.
Denver added Miller, Leonard, Boykins, and got a full season from Canby. It wasn’t only Carmelo. And they were better with him off the court.
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If this were today, every old head would be showing this on a loop while bitching about how slow and unskilled today’s players are…
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No.
The Lakers need one thing.
It’s not more ball handling.
Kyrie had his chance. He blew it.
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Lebron hater text book:
1) highlight every bad play Lebron ever makes
2) Blame it on “stat padding”
3) If a teammate has bad game, BLAME IT ON LEBRON
4) If Lebron has a great game, say nothing
You get to watch your followers increase, while your real credibility goes to shit.
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Barkley hates everything about the league.
Every single thing.
He’s a horrible representative of NBA content.
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Beat a 39 win Knicks
Beat a 44 win 76ers with a negative SRS
Beat a 50 win Detroit team that had nearly everyone injured
Beat a Lakers team with limping Worthy hurt and Scott hurt.
It’s one of the weakest runs ever.
“Who was injured on the Pistons?”
Thomas
Laimbeer
Dumars
Edwards
Aguirre
Bedford
Henderson
All listed here. Enjoy the narratives.
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Jordan was 2-4 in OT in the playoffs.
Lebron 11-4.
But, yeah, run with the “Jordan was the real winner in OTs”narrative.
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MICHAEL WILBON: WHAT HE THOUGHT OF MJ’S FINALS COMPETITION 🧵
Old heads trust @RealMikeWilbon, right?
He can’t even get through a PTI episode without mentioning MJ.
So, when he was a writer for the WA Post in the 90s, he thought MJ’s competition was GREAT, right?
Take a look.
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Played through every contract.
Didn’t take the money and NOT play.
Didn’t quit 3 times.
Different from somebody else we know, right?
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So Barkley:
Forms Superteams
Ring chases
Doesn’t work hard
Doesn’t play defense
Clunks 3s
Is selfish
Criticizes teammates
Forces trades
Craves attention
AND spits on young girls.
The love of Barkley exposes old head hypocrisy.
He’s exactly what they supposedly HATE. 👍
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JORDAN’S 1990s EASTERN CONFERENCE: THE WEAK EAST. 🧵
MJ fans swear that MJ didn’t play in a weak conference in his era.
It’s wrong.
MJ‘s East had no other elite teams, had fewer All NBA players, and was weaker than the West almost every year.
Let’s blow up a narrative.
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Again, everyone…Lebron “Made” Austin.
It’s time to give the GOAT his due.
He didn’t make a 5th pick with elite physical talent. He made a guy who didn’t even get drafted.
Different.
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MJ’S 83 & 84 COLLEGE SEASONS STRING
Any chance you noticed The Last Dance skipped 1983 and 84?
It’s because MJ failed as a leader in college, with possibly the greatest lineup ever. Historic collapses.
Let’s look at MJ at ages 20-21, ages Lebron gets criticized at daily.
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Yeah, he couldn’t play defense, and was singlehandedly responsible for what they called “Rondopalooza.”
While having 4, 9, 12 and 13 point games.
Shot 37% vs Orlando, with 4 games below 33%.
So…yeah, a bum.
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The Curry, Kobe and MJ fans arguing that their guys would’ve “never missed” last night is funny.
In these situations:
Playoffs
3PA
To take the lead
With 20 sec or less
In the 4th / OT
Not ONE has hit a shot with data available.
Curry, Kobe: 0-4
MJ: 0-2
Different expectations.
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